Jeanette: Today’s guest is Marylis Ramos. She's an architect and urban planner turned development consultant and sustainability advisor. Today's chat will be about net zero versus climate action in cities. So, Marylis. Thank you for coming today and perhaps if I may allow you to introduce yourself in the way you'd like to be introduced, and perhaps tell us what you got you onto this path.

Marylis: Thanks. Hi Jeanette and Luis and hello everyone, I am Marylis. I am a director at Savills Earth and I'm in charge of our sustainability advisory service which basically pulls together expertise from a lot of different people to make sure that clients have the support that they need in this time that we have, which is all about the net zero transition, how we get there? What people can do, and I think, but what I'm finding is that everyone is struggling with the same set of problems. And it's good to link people up together because we can all help each other navigate this new kind of reality that we live in.

Jeanette: Yes, and indeed as you started mentioning, cities are at the center of all of this, I think because they are the ones that link you know communities with government. They link infrastructure together they there are melting pots of many different things and through addressing net zero within a city, I think it makes so much more of a cohesive plan. Before going into the details of it, perhaps would you be able to define for us for our audience what is net zero and climate action and how they relate to cities?

Marylis: So, Net zero is all about carbon and net zero.

Net means the balance of that carbon to get to 0. So, it's not about like not using carbon or energy at all, because that means that we just don't function as a society. It's about making sure that when we do use carbon or emit carbon somewhere that we're making up for it somewhere else and at the heart of it, that is net zero. But there are lots of mechanisms that people are developing to make this happen. And there's a lot of trade-offs, you know, this is not just carbon tradeoffs, it's environmental, social, and economic tradeoffs that happen to make those scales balance so that we keep our global emissions to a level where we're able to achieve only 1 1/2 degrees of temperature change overall as we talk about how we may have missed this target already that we're now aiming to keep it down to two. I'm still hopeful I think if you aim for 1.5 you'll get to 2. And climate action is all about making sure that the people in power, the companies who make decisions are constantly reminded that this is what people want. Our rule as individuals isn't limited to, oh well, just recycle something at home or I'll compost, I'll do this, I'll do that. Because that has really, really little impact. Climate action is about leveraging our power as consumers as individual consumers to hold companies accountable. To hold our leaders accountable so that they will do the right thing.

Jeanette: Yes, they're all very difficult things to achieve, but together we'll be able to make the change and just to refer back to a report that was published by the United Nations that talks about how urban areas are designed, constructed and managed. And it mentioned 6 topics, energy, land use, industry, urban environment. Buildings in transport, so I was wondering how you would think cities should interpret this to bring about change and cancer. Cities have the power that is needed to influence these changes.

Marylis: Definitely. I mean, the cities are the key and like I said earlier, it's not about individual actions at this stage. It's about governance as well. It's about making sure that things are run correctly. It's about putting mechanisms in place to ensure that efforts are put in the right pots, and it's not just one of these six. Actually, I could argue that cities are not just about the physical environment, they're also about the people. So, there's a lot about those kinds of UN sustainable development goals. That's they're about society and all of that. And Cities interconnect all of those cities function by bringing all of us together and making sure that everything runs in a way that everyone gets what they need. So, in terms of energy, land use, industry, urban environment, buildings and transport, those are the key ones for reducing carbon. And cities can do a lot in terms of policy in terms of planning decisions to make sure that all of those are aligned, and all of those are addressing this climate emergency that we find ourselves in. And it's a synergy. Of all of these things.

Jeanette: It's so interesting that you've mentioned the people because I think when discussing this with Luis, we've always talked about how cities sit in a great place between the national top down changed as needed and the influence that individuals, businesses and communities may bring from a bottom-up perspective. So yes, successful net zero transition. Required changes at all levels of society, really.

Marylis: Yeah, and here in the UK there's a huge push towards understanding what social value really means. You know, as a backdrop to this whole net zero carbon agenda, how do you measure it in a way that is meaningful? Because often if you just talk about energy for the longest time, I've been a sustainability consultant for, you know 15 years now and in the beginning, you know, people were really desperately trying to make the argument, you have to go for energy efficiency because the return on investment is this. Because your energy bills will reduce by this much. It's so little if you just look at that one single metric. But if you start measuring the intangibles of reducing energy efficiency of reducing carbon of making homes more thermally comfortable, there's a lot of social benefit that comes to that. That is currently not being measured and I am glad to see that there are these metrics coming out that are being published by people that local authorities here in the UK are actually starting to use. They're basically monetizing things like going from an EPC rating of this to that you know what is the social value of that having no poo on streets, for example, there's a monetary value associated with that, and that then ties in with the whole. Basically, what makes society run, which is the financial metrics the viability, but you know you have something to compare all of them together. On an equal scale.

Jeanette: We keep on talking about metrics being reached by certain target dates. There's been the 2030 days and the 2050 days. What challenge do you think cities face in reaching these particular target dates?

Marylis: Well, I think what's been happening recently is that these target dates, it’s not just cities that are doing this. Cities in London like the local authorities in London. Some of them have gone. We're in a climate emergency. We're declaring that. This borough is in climate emergency. We want to get to net zero in operation by 2030 net zero everything by 2045, say, and all of these declarations are being made at high level. And then it's trickling down to you know, people on the ground, the designers, a development manager, is the people who are actually delivering these projects, and they're like, OK, how do we do that? So, I think there's still a disconnect between those ambitions and the techniques, the models, and the skills that we need to actually deliver it. But the nice thing about that is because it's come from top down. Because these strong statements have been made, there are a lot of people working on making this happen. No consultants. The sustainability industry is in very high demand at the moment because everyone is trying to understand, ok, what's scope one with scope two? It's scope three. How do we measure it? What does that mean for us? Where can we make assumptions, you know? What do we have? You know, this, this whole exercise of baselining that's either just been completed or going on at the moment for a lot of people, especially local authorities who are looking at their stock, looking at what they have, looking at what that stock is emitting, and then if you have that information you can then figure out how to make it go down by targeting what areas you can change and the things you want to influence first.

Jeanette: Yes, and I think what really comes out strongly from all of this is that the carbon itself and reducing carbon is not necessarily the main driver for most people, and that there's a need for businesses and for citizens to become to get behind that change and understand what's in it for them. I think the idea of co-benefit is a really interesting concept where benefits like air quality and improved health and safety and well-being, and that I think these are the aspects that really motivate people in in getting into these targets. As you said, it's not just you know, not just a high level. This is what we have to do. But how are we going to achieve it? Which is going to be very important, so looking at this on a more holistic level, I think it will help and maybe even a systems level because you know, city is a system of many systems together.

Marylis: Yeah, definitely, and I think the focus on social value in parallel with the whole net zero approach is definitely the way to go. And when I talk about net zero, I always remind people at the end that is carbon is the primary metric. It's very important. Everyone is talking about it. But without a holistic approach, it is still not going to give us the legacy that we need because those, just focusing on carbon is not going to be meaningful to people lives really. If it's just the numbers that you're looking at because you could go for a very low carbon rating, but not realize that there are unintended consequences to doing that in terms of how people live their lives, the quality of their homes, you can seal everyone up in these tight little boxes. They won't use up any energy. But you know they'll suffocate and die. It was a bit dark, but you have to make sure that all of the effects on social value and quality of life on health and well-being are still being considered alongside all of those decisions.

Jeanette: And do you think that all of this is good to be included in a national Net Zero framework? I know the UK has one, but not every country has such a framework. So, in practice, what does this look like for you? And what's the distance would you make for people who are still trying to put this together?

Marylis: I think in terms of the UK national is net zero framework. It's quite interesting because it's hinged a lot on the decarbonization of the grid, so the idea is, sadly, that you can't really put it all on the people. You know, you have to cause you can't. Really forced people to lead sustainable lifestyles. They have to want it. So, the whole approach to decarbonizing the grid is in a way a foolproof approach. If you just shift everything to electricity, people will still use energy. In parallel you work on trying to get them to reduce that energy, but if you decarbonize the grid then that energy will be green, so there's a lot of emphasis on the solar power stuff, the offshore wind generation and moving away from fossil fuels, which is why in 2025, kind of we're not going to be allowed to put gas boilers in new homes from that point onwards. And there's also a huge emphasis on the reuse of existing buildings, which we're starting to see. So, the team I work with in Savills Earth we do a lot of work on property management and therefore there's a lot of work on making existing buildings more thermally efficient to make them net zero, because in the commercial world there is talk about assets being stranded. So, in there's going to come a point in the future where if a building is badly performing and you try to sell it or rent it, and the people who you're targeting as the market for that have their own zero carbon commitments, they're not going to touch that property with a bargepole, so there's a lot of that which falls in with the Net Zero framework. Having such a strong emphasis on net zero carbon, the country is going to be net zero carbon in operation and embodied carbon as well by 2050. And there is a clear trajectory for that. There are set dates and time building regs are changing to reflect that embodied carbon calculations which didn't used to be looked at all. Now have to be calculated for every planning application of a certain size in London. And through that you're then upskilling your consultant base to know how to do those calculations. People doing development have to understand what goes in there, and we might be looking at a future where you have to prove why you're not refurbishing something before you're allowed to demolish it. To enable to encapsulate that value and make sure that we're not wasting all of that material. So, in terms of other countries who haven't quite gotten there yet, like you mentioned. That it's still kind of something that's being developed from Malta, you do have to look at how to decarbonize that grid as well as encouraging people to reduce their energy consumption. At the moment it's all hands-on deck. Everyone has to do their part. You can't just hinge a strategy on one sector of society or one part of the country. Everyone has to do something if you want to get to net zero.

Jeanette: It's so interesting that this trickling down effect has been mentioned twice already, and it looks like yes, it got to be there on every level of society, so we've mentioned the government in a top down sort of approach. We've mentioned some, you know the community's role in all of this, but there is a middle block, I think, which are the local authorities, which are somewhat of a connection between the community and the and the national government. So, how do you think that the role of these local authorities could be? What do you think their best remit to be able to establish this measurement, this net zero measurement approach, if such thing exists?

Marylis: Well, certainly it does exists. There are lots of metrics from how to measure carbon for buildings both operationally and sort of in terms of embodied carbon and local authorities play a very crucial role in being the garden guardians of what gets developed, so they set the parameters. They can set guidance for how they want things to be. They can set what kind of evidence you need to provide for something to go forward. In terms of new developments, local authorities can set their own targets. I don't know if you're allowed to do that in Malta. But you can say, ok, the government has said this, we're going to do our own slightly different version, which takes it a little bit further because we know that we can do it, and we know that we have these unique resources, or we have these special skills available in our local area that we can capitalize on to make this happen. And I think net zero measurement is definitely a start, because we can't make decisions without those numbers and without tracking how those numbers go down in time. So, a very good start would be the baselining exercise. Finding out what you have and finding out and developing strategies, maybe consulting experts if you need to figure out. But the best thing to do first is kind of in terms of the resources that you have available.

Jeanette: Yes, that is that is that is actually happening here when you know. Companies and people think that they can start on the on the targets as a different race than what other companies are doing or whatever, what the national requirement is. But when we were talking to some of the local communities, we've also realized that the speed at which this needs to happen is also very fast. I mean, we're talking about 2030, which is only eight years away. 2050 not that long to go and I think the community engagement of all of this needs to be so much more stronger than in many other projects, for example because we need all of these people. All of these enablers, so to speak, to them to expedite certain decisions. And when governments, both local and national, are taking decisions, it is so much more important now to keep the Community updated to what they're doing because if we're not doing that, if we're not doing something with them or doing it for them, and then the community will not really be interested in taking this forward and in the UK, how are communities aligning to this behavior change and talk about real change and not just one of the fringes?

Marylis: It's quite funny. Part of several communities in my local area where there is that push from bottom up. So yes, the national government, the local authorities do their bit, but they're also being pushed by people who want to see more happening, which is amazing. You know you've got some zero waste initiatives, so you've got communities helping in whatever way they can through their daily lives, so there's a lot of community grassroots involvement in terms of zero waste initiatives. Recycling. Kind of helping each other out. Uh, so the social values sort of things, and that's because communities and individuals have a certain sphere of influence. And they are working on that sphere of influence. If you don't recycle your, you're actually kind of it's becoming unfashionable. So even it's embarrassing if you don't. Basically, if you don't do the right thing nowadays, uhm, if you have plastic in your house, it's like OMG, you know. I love that it's turning into this. This new norm that is moving away from things that we shouldn't be doing. You know veganism, vegetarianism shifting away from permitting too much dairy and meat is. It's stuff that I see a lot of people doing and that's very encouraging.

Jeanette: Yes, well we're trying to do a little part in our household as well.

Luis: Yeah. Jeanette and I have these conversations and we see the gap between local government and the community trying to understand each other in terms of culture. There is a lot of unconscious bias as well. How is this conversation being tackled in the UK?

Marylis: Yeah, well, I think unconscious bias in terms of that, that's just about having civilized conversations with people so that you can break down those biases, I mean, if you it is. It's a big thing here, actually. In corporate environments that shouldn't be happening, we all get training on the kind of language that you use and how you shouldn't assume that a person is. Maybe we'll behave in a certain way or make certain choices just by the way they look or their background and if that is happening there then there just needs to be more communication. I mean there is certain, there is something to communicating messages culturally though. There are certain things that you can do here, like London is a melting pot for a lot of different cultures and sometimes you can't use the same messaging on sustainability as one size fits all strategy because there are certain cultural new answers that might not get it, or even just translating stuff into different languages. So, knowing the local authorities do that a lot here, where if it's a, if it's an information campaign, it has to be translated to a very specific set of sectors. And because there are like a lot of communities that just tend to stick to their own don't really integrate in terms of English language material, so that's a first step, but also having a community engagement assistant who represent their communities in a meaningful way and that also helps with diversity and inclusion, right? So, it's not just the guy in the white suit talking to a community that he doesn't identify with. He or she doesn't identify with. Its having that sensitivity, but also not making those conclusions that they will behave in a certain way and you should just exclude them.

Jeanette: Yeah, that is really seeing the sustainability development goals in their entirety and the full breadth of them and what they really mean to various people in various circumstances and various cities, etcetera, etcetera. So yes, this conversation, I'm sure that there will be a lot of unpacking to do for it to go into the detail of it.

Marylis: Yeah, especially if you're talking about people lifestyles, and you're telling people what and what not to eat, you know, and what not products that they should consume. There's people who can't do. That because of their economic status, you know it's just kind of, just that sensitivity to different situations I think, and what that means in terms of sustainability and still giving people the opportunity to help in any way they can, because otherwise they'll just say, well, I can't do any of that. You know, and then you just feel like a failure cause you're not helping, helping with the cause, but you want to. So how do you reach out to different members of society and make sure that the messaging is on point for everyone.

Jeanette: Yes, that's a quite the tricky one, I would say, but not at all impossible if there is, you know the cultural intelligence behind the messaging. So yes, we've talked about many things that make a sustainable community work together for a net zero, and if I may go back a little bit to what we're talking about before talking about the low carbon infrastructure. Besides the obvious environmental benefits, what do you think are the possible advantages of low carbon infrastructure?

Marylis: Well, certainly they are very instrumental in meeting net zero carbon goals in terms of things like sustainable transports, the place making peace, it's all about enabling people to have access to amenities and everything in a very low carbon way. And you can do that in a very simple way. Just making walkable neighborhoods and encouraging people to take public transport reduces carbon by quite a lot. It also improves health and well-being. It improves community cohesion, so it's about choosing those solutions that have benefits from more than one dimension and we have worked in urban regeneration projects, and this is certainly something that urban designers think about a lot in terms of sustainable neighborhoods. It's that mobility piece. This whole idea of having a 15-minute city or donut city, whatever you want to call it where people don't have to travel very far to get what they need. It's all within a friendly walking distance. And this is something that I think came to the fore when we were all in lockdown and had to stay at home and you can't get to supermarket, and you're like what do I do? And you can't travel. Supermarkets, schools, dentists, doctors, all of that need to be kind of serving a community in a meaningful way that produces carbon. Things like passive house, passively designed buildings. Thermally efficient buildings to reduce energy efficiency. That's just a given really. Here in the UK, we're moving towards the use of air source heat pumps because they're kind of electric systems to go with the decarbonization of the grid. Obviously that strategy only works if you are decarbonizing the grids, because if you move towards electricity. Integrity isn't decarbonized. You'll be emitting a lot of carbon and making things a lot more expensive for everyone as well, so you know it's all in balance. Different contexts require different solutions, uhm? What else is approach to water? A sustainable approach to materials, not just in terms of the embodied carbon of the materials, but also in terms of their emissions, their air quality impacts. All of that should be considered by cities as a maybe as a set of minimum standards for new developments and also a set of minimum standards for refurbishments going forward so that the whole thing can work to reduce carbon on a large scale.

Jeanette: Yes, I quite enjoyed reading about Carlos Moreno “15 minutes City” and Kate Raworth donut city. They're all donut economy. I think the book is called, they're very interesting concepts. And yes, most of us have had a bit of a flavor of them, or lack of flavor. Perhaps if depending on our situation, during our COVID shutdown. Raworth also talked about the dwell time of people in a in a city when they're walking rather than driving through a city center. I think there are separate studies that show that businesses also flourish because people are longer in a Town Center, so they'll grab a coffee or do some shopping.

So, there's more than one benefit from slowing down and really taking it all in and enjoy even the quality of life and the way we interact with our society. So, net zero should not be seen only from the, you know, the numbers, the metrics point of view, but also on how it can enrich our individual lifestyles.

It's also interesting how you've mentioned the passive house and you mentioned earlier on yes, we could, you know, we could all sit in a in an airtight box and be very carbon efficient. But I think the balance between the passive and the active things that are that we can get done from, you know, if we can get from the air, the sun, the wind in compliment to whatever energy system that we're going to be using to regulate temperatures. And, you know, be comfortable in our homes. So, all of these really play a lot. There's a lot of impact on our life and on the way we behave. So, all of this is really interesting.

Marylis: I grew up in the Philippines, so one of my favorite subjects during my undergraduate degree was tropical design. And any student studying architecture in the Philippines is trained to look at sun, wind and light, you know to look at where the sun is, where the wind is coming from, to look at how the light is behaving and designing your buildings and your windows, accordingly, in that relationship between your indoor environment and your outdoor environment through your building. Is kind of poetry to me and that was what drew me to architecture in the first place. So, the first step for me is always passive design. So, is understanding your environment, understanding the thermal, the thermal environment, and how you would design for that. And it's also a very good first step for energy efficiency, because the more you can use your natural environment, which is free, the less you're reliant on artificial light and artificial cooling, artificial heating. So, the passive house, I mean there is a myth that it is a sealed box that doesn't let you breathe, but that would be a very badly designed. Passive house and probably wouldn't earn the badge. Passive houses in essence, something that uses a dwelling that uses or a building that uses solar energy in a very, very smart way. And but it does require a very specific set of behaviors to use it properly so people do need to be trained like, particularly in the UK, where buildings are traditionally quite leaky, passive house is a very, very different building and if you don't know how to use it properly, then it could actually end up using more energy than it's designed to, so I think I think there is an education piece there as well that is very important.

Jeanette: I think you and I have a similar were inspired by rather similar instances in our childhood, coming from a warm country. I was always amazed how our ancestors kept buildings cool and how they warm them up. Uhm, you know using very thick walls and thermal mass things that we now have mathematical calculations to deal with all of them at the time it was trial and error and really understanding how the materials worked and how they came together and the positioning of windows and the positioning of a courtyard and how to make use of natural ventilation. It was pretty amazing, and I think at a certain extent we may have lost some of this skill. Over time, and we're now regaining it because we've realized that it was really the way to go.

Marylis: Yes, and this is one story I like to tell, actually. Because in the UK, traditionally the UK is pretty cold, right? But with climate change, we're seeing temperatures that we're not. Used to be. Seeing like right now I'm sitting in. In office that's 30 plus degrees and I'm dying, but and this is this is not usual temperature for here. So, the buildings are not designed like this. You know there are no shutters on the windows. It's usually no shading whatsoever, whereas you go to a tropical country and there are like really deep overhangs. There's a lot of permeability in the facade. In a hot country you can do that, but in a country where you have winter and summer, the permeability is, I quickly learned quite a bad thing to have. If you can't control it. So, you really do have to look at the climate to be able to decide. You can't just take a design from another country and plonk it somewhere else and expect it to work because that is the complete opposite of the ethos of passive design.

Jeanette: Yes, now I think Luis has a burning question for you now.

Marylis: It's just a burning question.

Luis: I'm going to put you on the spot. A person very close to me has told me that you like salsa very much.

Marylis: Oh dear.

Luis: Is this true?

Marylis: Yes. I do.

Luis: Can you please tell me more about it?

Marylis: That is how I met the person very close you. Actually. She and I used to dance salsa quite a lot, but yeah, I learned how to dance Cuban salsa. Where was it in California where my partner and I used to live, and I think that was his effort to make up for the fact that the first time he went to dancing lessons together was in Cambridge and it was in preparation for a May ball or something and within 5 minutes of the class starting I found his elbow in my eye. So, many, many years later, he then decided he would try to learn salsa first, 'cause I was going to be moving to California to join him. And then he got a few weeks ahead of me. And then I joined him. And then we learned it together. So, when I came back to London and I met Jeanette, we had had a little bit of experience, so we were still learning and it's just such a nice. The particular salsa that Chad and I used to do was the casino which is Cuban salsa danced in a wheel and I loved that because it removes the spark weirdness of having to ask someone to dance because you're all dancing with each other. And this is really nice sense of community to it and yeah, it's a very, very sociable dance. It's also very cheeky. If you really dig deep into the culture of it, this also has a really, really deep connection too Holy Aruba, the Cuban gods and all of that that you don't realize until you've done it for a while, so it has also a very deep cultural meaning, which is fascinating.

Luis: Yeah, so true and I like the way I can see you glow just sharing your story. So, let's get rid of the name giving to this type of dance for the moment.

Marylis: Ok.

Luis: As you know, dancing Salsa is not a matter of counting numbers or taking classes. It is rather a deep feeling. Toward this song you listen to the instruments, the partner with whom you share this song. The environment that surrounds you. All these positive feelings that fill your soul. So, in your opinion, do you think that the built environment is including as essential part, this intangible values?

Marylis: I think it should. I think our build environment should sing to us. It should be fun. It should be. It should be a place where people can get together in a very positive way. And I think also salsa can be quite or their dance could be quite technical. There is a precision to how you do stuff and. So, it's a mixture of all of those things. It's merging that fun with the technique with the desire to do things properly with a desire to connect with other people. If you translate that into the built environment, then I think we should be in a very good place.

Jeanette: That was really nicely put. Yes, if only if only cities and salsa could mix more often. They could learn a lot from each other.

Marylis: I didn't know you danced salsa as well. Luis, do you?

Luis: Oh yeah, that thing is on me. All over.

Marylis: Cause I never met you and. Jeanette was here, I guess.

Jeanette: No, no it was my best kept secret Marylis.

Luis: Yeah. I like everything. Salsa, merengue, bachata. Everything.

Marylis: Oh wow.

Jeanette: Guys are diverging. This is not the aim of the podcast.

Marylis: Focus. Focus. Let's go back.

Jeanette: This was such an amazing chat, fairness, thank you so much, perhaps by way, by way of maybe concluding this session. Do you think you could perhaps point to one or two take away points, maybe for the public authorities. Some little nuggets of information that people could keep on thinking and actionable points that they can take on board. Very quickly.

Marylis: Well, I think just one main point really for me and what I'm really realizing is that, and I don't want to bring down the tone, but this is really a serious issue and it's very urgent. You know, if change needs to have, we've been sitting on the issue of global warming climate change for such a long time. I've been consultant for so many years and it's not just about producing pretty reports and guidance and hoping that they will make a difference. I think it really is about making those decisions that will make an impact. It's about putting measures in place that will lead to tangible results because. We need to change, and we need to change very quickly and we all need to do it in a very focused way if we are going to stop that 2 degrees from happening. It's about meaningful gestures. It's about urgent action, and I think that's something that we all need to do.

Jeanette: Take note guys. This was Marylis Ramos, and you are listening to the Human Agenda. Thank you so much for joining us in this episode.