Mindset shift, innovation and B Corp

31 min read

Minou Schillings is a young professional who is laser focussed on social and sustainable development. She established herself as one of the go-to people for sustainable innovation and creative thinking processes for sustainability. Minou has been guest at various sustainability and purpose-oriented podcasts and she regularly host and speak at sustainability, purpose and community-driven events. Together with Pamela Smith they are running The Green Sprint, an innovation agency focusing on accelerating the global sustainability transition.

Jeanette: Our guest today is Minou Schillings. She is a regenerative business facilitator. Mindset, strategy and innovation specialist and a B leader and she's going to be telling us all about this today in our talk about mindset shift and B Corporation.

So perhaps Minou if you could start off by introducing yourself in the way that you'd like to be introduced.

Minou: Yes, of course, yes. Minou Schillings from the Netherlands. I actually lived and studied in Malta, so it's really nice to be back on a Maltese podcast. It feels like the circle is round again. I have an academic background in innovation processes and creativity. Lateral thinking at Edward Debono very famous on the island and myself I'm very worried like many of us about climate change, about where we are going with our society, our way of living, our very destructive way of living. And I believe that it's very much needed to go to a mindset shift to start thinking differently and operating differently in such a way that we can actually make sure that we as humans can thrive on this planet and businesses play a very, very big role in our society and therefore I think this is there also the place for us to start accelerating rapid change and accelerating the transition to a regenerative, inclusive and sustainable future. So that is exactly what I do at my business, which is called The Green Sprint. Basically, I wonder what it be to start sprinting to a greener and more inclusive future and I help companies more specifically teams in a false moving consumer goods industry to accelerate this change, go embrace the regenerative mindset. Develop regenerative and sustainable strategies and then actually only once you have the right mindset and strategy in place started innovating. Yeah, actually future proof and sustainable products that will ensure that we can live as happy people on this planet but that also the planet is still happy to have us on here.

Jeanette: What an introduction. You've touched on some really interesting words there. We've talked about, sustainability. We're talking about regeneration now for us when we. We, I mean ask Luis and I when we talk about sustainability, sometimes it's a bit of a word that we need to take care of how we use it because to sustain something it means that we need to keep it as is. But if we keep on using, you know GDPs to monitor how successful we are as a society. If we keep on using certain metrics like KPIs, there are a ton of them without looking at what effect they have on the planetary system on how we're affecting the planet and how that in turn is affecting us, our well-being, etc.

Could you perhaps describe what you mean by regenerative yourself? And maybe how one could start in that shift? Or that mindset shift that we're talking about from where we are to where we'd like to go?

Minou: Of course, of course, that's a massive question though. Sustainability over the last couple of years or maybe decades, it became a bit of a buzzword and don't understand me wrong there is nothing wrong with sustainability. We still have to focus on a sustainable future, on sustainable actions and all of that, but sustainability, indeed just simply means sustained flexibility. The ability to sustain something over a longer period of time, even if that something is toxic, even if it's that something is, maybe that's something that we shouldn't keep up over a longer period of time and for a company, sustainability can just simply mean OK, we produce our crops in a way that we can keep using the land over and over and over again, and we're not depleting it until a point that we can't longer grow anything on that land. But it doesn't actually say or mean that we have to find a way to help that land restore and heal and thrive. And if you regeneration in a way also comes from the agriculture background or even further back from the indigenous people, and it's very much about living In Sync with nature, about helping other ecosystems, individuals and entities to thrive, to be the best version of themselves. To be regenerative, to heal to not be destructive, to really acknowledge our place in the system in the natural system, in the ecosystems. To acknowledge that we're part of it that it's noted. That it's all connected, that there are learnings from previous generation, and they're responsible to future generations. So, it's quite big and it really entails a whole mindset shift in living differently and stepping away from that humans are on top of everything else and their own, control of everything else and we don't have to be a part of the system because we can control the system. Simply not true. We have tried that for a couple of centuries, decades. It clearly doesn't work in the end that will be the destruction of our own species.

So, whereas sustainability at one point stops at the place where it's just upholding, regeneration goes a step further and really goes into healing but all under one umbrella. Sustainability engine regeneration are still connected. We still need both. It doesn't mean that everybody who is focusing on regeneration will sort of leave behind the sustainable development goals and how we can start working on it. That really depends. That's a really personal journey. For every business and every individual. What I would recommend is there is this book by Laura Storm and Gillis Hutchins. It's called Regenerative Leadership. In that book there is a sort of an exercise which called an ecosystemic map, and it challenges you to sort of map your own ecosystem, so your relations with nature, your relations with other people, your relations with silence, with yourself, with products with the environment with your boss with all of it and then you sort of have to draw thick and thin lines. The thin lines are for relationships that are not strongly influencing each other, or they may be destructive, or the thick lines are strong connections and then you have bright lines for things that are going well, and dark lines or things are not going well. So, you're sort of mapping your own life and seeing, Ok, I clearly have a not so bright, maybe even dark weak connection with nature, and if I'm shopping too much as a very strong connection with shopping, but that's not that's not a good connection cause it's destructive for the planet, so you get a clear overview of which actions in your life you can start taking and also which areas maybe need more attention and if you do that in combination with asking yourself questions about how do you want to live, what is your meaning of success? Why do you want two cars and a house and climbing the corporate ladder and always having the new technologies and all of these things? What is the underlying reason for you to want all of that? So, it's more of a philosophical journey and I would recommend every person, even in business, to start there, because it's almost impossible. No. Actually, it is impossible to build and create a regenerative culture in an organization, if you yourself are not aware or still living in a in a destructive linear non regenerative manner.

Jeanette: It is really interesting this relation that you have outlined here. That we are our business, and our business is us. So, we need to take care of ourselves as well as our personal relationships for us to be able to flourish in our businesses. These links you have outlined are particularly interesting because they really trace what is important to us in our life, and that makes it clearer for us where we're going to make a change, and therefore where in our mindset that we need to shift. I think certain things that are happening around us have really illustrated some of these shifts. We have been through the pandemic. Now we're going through a war. Some obviously more affected than others, but all of these grossly disruptive elements in our society and our economy are having lingering effects.

Perhaps if we could discuss how these relate to innovation, how we think that's to be able to innovate, you have to be somewhat disruptive. But you have to find this niche in the economy that has not yet been tackled. So, for example, now we're all tech savvy with online platforms meetings from home. We are a little bit more flexible even in terms of children running in front of cameras and you know, the whole domestic side is showing in our professional life. So, if we go to this link between the mindset and strategy and innovation, how would this tie in together in your opinion?

Minou: That's interesting that you're saying that innovation often has to be disruptive. I'm not sure I would agree. I do think that we are a bit addicted to the stories of disruptive innovators, and like the Elon Musks and everything like we sort of put innovators and entrepreneurs at this pedestal and we're almost worshipping them and their technological dreams. Even though that I think that it's a bit disturbing that we all want to go to space, now, even though that we can't really take care of the planet yet. And I'm also not sure that it always has to be about disruptive technology and innovation when it comes to building a regenerative and inclusive future. I think most of the technologies are already in place. We know a lot about hydro and about solar and about EV's, and about all of these, uhm, efficient supply chains and all of these things, but we are constantly prioritizing short term gains and other things over actually investing in these technologies and in their widespread adaptation of these technologies.

And we're also constantly investing ourselves as consumers in products that we perhaps don't need or that are destructive or polluting, even though that's constantly buying those products requires us to have more budget and to have more budget we need to work more and if we are working more, we have less free time and if we have less free time, we want more stuff to not feel empty and then for that more stuff we need more money again.

So, actually I don't think we need a disruptive innovation approach, but we need a disruptive way of thinking about how we're living our life and rapidly starting to completely change the way we think and therefore it is a tricky thing as well, because changing the way we think isn't immediately something that we associate with as progress. If you know what I mean, cause we're a lot of bases are very progress oriented and result outcome oriented actually. So, we always want the best results, and we want them quick and we want them tangible and measurable and shifting the way we think isn't perse those things, even though that it would be beneficial for us over a longer period of time. So, I think one of the things that we have to change our mindset about which is the challenge, is stepping away from results driven disruptive innovation and moving towards slow but like in depth true change.

Jeanette: Wow, yes that is a really interesting way of looking at it. Disrupting our current mindsets to be able to bring about a change and there are various ways of doing this. You've mentioned the, you know, the qualitative versus the quantitative. You know it's easy to measure all of these KPIs and all of these metrics but then when we actually look at the results in terms of the more intangible, how does one make, how am I feeling? How does the city affect my well-being? How does this product affect me and my family?

Yeah, I think these are very important aspects that needs to be taken into account and if I may, I know that you're a B leader and if I'm a link this into the conversation of how a B Corporation or a benefit corporation correct me if I am, misquoting this, how it all ties in with the concept of sustainability, development goals and maybe you can give us a bit of a background of what is a B Corporation.

Minou: Yes, yes, of course. So, a B corporation is basically a company that uses business as a force for good. And I'm indeed a builder, which means that I'm certified in guiding companies through the big impact assessment, which is the assessment that companies have to go through to be certified. Be certified B Corp and I have to redo this assessment every three years. It focuses on different elements like their environment and employees and consumers and all of that. But I'm going to put a side note directly here, the B Corp movement, it's a great movement and it's very needed that we have a strong visible movement of companies that is using business as a force for good but when it comes to regeneration, the whole B Corp movement is still very growth oriented. A lot of companies unfortunately seem to use it as a greenwashing marketing technique, and unfortunately, the BEI assessment also allows that room there is that space to actually use it as a sort of a greenwashing stamp, and I think it is important that this movement is here because it's making it more visible from consumers that something has to happen but only just getting the certification to attract more consumers and not actually wanting the business to become more regenerative or sustainable for me, it's a slippery slope because the moment you have that B Corp stamp on your products, consumers automatically think that you might not have negative impact, or that you're using businesses as a force for good. But because it is divided over 5 different sections like you can, you can have 200 points in total in the B Corp assessment process, 60 of those points you get for impact business models. An impact business model is a business model that really makes the world or the lives better of a very specific target audience. So, for example, Greystone Bakery in I think in America, they are the ones that make the little cookie dough things in Ben and Jerry’s, so they do inclusive hiring and I think even hiring without a CV, without a resume and everything so they really focus on building stronger communities, giving people better lives. Give people with additions to the job market, the opportunity to actually get a job and learn and develop themselves, so that's an impact business model, so you can get 30 points for those if you have two, we can get 60. The other 140 is for the operational side of things but you can already get a B Corp certified, so the stamp at 80. So, if you do very well at for example employees or consumers, but not so well as environment you can still get the certification even though that you have a environmentally destructive product and the other way around you can, I think BrewDog from the UK is a great example. They are very they're doing very well when it comes to battling deforestation. Working on reforestation, building sustainable beer, beer production processes, and all of that. But 250 of their employees wrote an open letter to the CEO about a toxic, dangerous working environment. So, you see there again, like doing well on one element doesn't mean that you're doing well on all elements because the assessment is so holistic it really wants the companies to take all of those boxes and look into all directions, and you can't require a company to be perfect from the start, but this does allow that little space to actually not be great in some elements, which is understandable as long as you have a plan for improvement and that is what I'm missing in some big corporations, they are like OK, we have to stamp now it's OK, we have to certification and it's it and I really think it's important to always keep in mind getting B certified the first time with 80 points is step one and then what? How can we do better? How can we really do better at all elements approaches? So, like holistically have a plan of improvement and get more points in next time and the next time and so on and not just keep it there and use it as a marketing tool.

But yeah, it is definitely a beautiful assessment for anyone, uhm, if it's solopreneurs it's freely available. You can just log in and go through it. Even if you don't want the certification, it's a really good mirror for yourself. Did you see? Oh, these are the points in my business that I can think more about so you can just use it as sort of a free analyzation tool of your business.

Jeanette: You've opened so many questions with that with that with that intervention and you know, we've heard recently stories about some very famous companies, such as Nestle, who have the Nespresso and we were looking at their impact on the people who actually grow the coffee and you know they have certification but they're not respecting the people as much. So, this idea of a as you call it, the inclusive and the equity bill and the regenerative economy it's not really being supported to the fullest. So yes, perhaps a tweak in how these points are allocated should be considered, but if I may there are also really interesting stories. We've heard of Patagonia; we've heard of a Body Shop and these are, another company called South Mountain Company who for us was really interesting because they are directly designing, you know architecture and within the built environment so they are particularly interesting, but maybe if you quote from your experience when you get the CEO, CFO's, whoever, whoever is our decision making people in the companies and bring them together and try and assign these sorts of metrics, does it really trickle down the entire food chains, or to speak in their establishment? or do you think it just remains very superficial and not really making an impact after all.

Minou: I think that is really how you use it. First of all, you know you sort of, you can't just take one person within the company to fill out the impact assessment because you need quite a lot of data and documents from people at different departments throughout the organization, so it's always a collective endeavor. That's a good thing and I think because B Corps are so famous, a lot of especially millennials and Gen Z is also want to work for B Corps, and if their company is going and entering the B Corporation process, they're probably very proud of that, and they want to be actively participating and also it actually improves your attraction and retainment of employees and talents, if you are B Corp because people want to work for B Corps. So, I think it's definitely something that is companywide and trickles down if that is what the company wants. If not, if it's just a marketing scheme, then not so much. But if you're using it with the right intention, also put a task force on it, or some different committees that focus on the different elements of improvement absolutely, and you can see that, Patagonia is a great example, but Patagonia was already doing great and was very embedded in their business to be regenerative to take care of the planet that is their purpose. It's why they exist and then on top of that there are B Corp which is very different from some organizations that previously existed for a different purpose and then now are transitioning to become a basis as using business as a force for good. So yeah, the two different ways of approaching the process, but as long as if you keep striving for progress, I think both are interesting journeys.

Jeanette: And do you foresee B Corporation being something which is regulated at low? I mean we have something similar in construction when we talk about LEED or BREEAM certifications or any other energy performance certifications for buildings and the built environment and this is sort of akin to that, it's just a little bit of a different way of, uhm, looking at how something could be sustainable. So, LEED or BREEAM certifications are not legally binding, for example but would you think this would be something that could be taken up by governance and maybe have some initiatives also to make sure that this could take place, what are your thoughts on the subject?

Minou: No, I actually don't think it will. It isn't, uhm, I don't think it will be something that is legally binding. I mean, of course what is important to know is that if you go to the bigger process, you sort of have to embed the purpose of your organization into the core of your business, and you do that in a legal way, uhm, so if the company is bought by like I don't know the exact terms, but if the company is bought by another company the purpose of the company remains the same if you want to change that purpose of the company, you'll lose your B Corp status. But actually, making it legally binding think it is too holistic and too widespread and not enough of the same kind of data to even find a way to upheld a legal standard. There seems very difficult to check if the certification process is also very different if you are solopreneur or big corporation if you are fast moving consumer goods or in the construction like it really changes questions, and everything change depending on what kind of organization you are, so to make that legally binding seems a bit seems a bit difficult. I also don't know if that's the way to go because I really believe that if we want to move to a regenerative future, it should be from an intrinsic driven part. And if we're going to force that, it kind of goes in against building a regenerative future which goes beyond just focusing on everything that can be measured because you yeah, that once it goes, you go back to actually business as usual thinking up which is which is what we what we often do. It's like that's our default setting and we want to we want to develop something and then we want to track the progress and know how much it did and make it legally binding or make someone be able to actually uphold someone to do it, but now I think if we really want to build a future that is inclusive, things like this have to be intrinsically driven.

Jeanette: The vicious cycles, right? Whether they are vicious or virtuous is just a matter of understanding what we're trying to achieve and why we are trying to achieve it, rather than as you said if it's something that it's imposed on us, then it is highly unlikely that we're going to be doing it for the sake of doing it. For the love of it, so to speak. You've talked about growth earlier and you have touched upon how B Corporation is actually in itself growing. Do you think B Corporation should exercise B Corp on itself?

Minou: I mean, that's an interesting question. I don't think there is anything wrong with growth, and I think it's amazing that the core movement is growing that the amount of businesses that are using business is a force for good is growing, it's great as well. It is just that what I'm questioning is the strong focus o quarterish shareholder like quarterly growth for shareholders. So, purely profit. Growing impacts, growing social impacts, growing the ability of environmental ecosystems to heal all of that, that's great. Constant profit growth, infinite profit growth on a finite planet and also upholding this idea of finite crowd capitalism that seems a bit yeah, it seems silly to me that just simply is something that is not possible and if we keep working within this capitalistic framework of infinite growth, then we will, we will run into ourselves and that's the end of it cause it's just not possible on a finite planet unless we start thinking of growth in a different way, so not growing GDP but growing well-being. Not growing shareholder profit but growing stakeholder value. That's a very different mindset, but it's really interesting that it's almost harder for some people to imagine the end of our current form of capitalism than it is to imagine the end of the earth and I'm not saying that we have to get rid of capitalism. Absolutely not because it is driving innovation. It is allowing us to organize the production of goods for 7 billion people and distribute these goods. It also drives creativity and connections or collaborations and all of those things. That's great. I'm just questioning the prioritization of what we find important within this capitalistic system.

Jeanette: Yeah, I've touched upon some things which are really interesting and take me back to what we started discussing in the beginning regarding the mindset. In your experience when you're looking at helping entrepreneurs or entrepreneurship's getting the certifications, what experiences do you have in actually suggesting this mindset? How do you go about planting the seeds of change within people who can make decisions to change?

Minou: Very, very slowly. It is literally planting seeds. It is. I wouldn't throw this up on someone straightaway within the first conversation. Absolutely not and that's also why I think it's more about regenerative pathways or sustainable pathways. It also took myself, years to get where I am right now and a lot of reading, a lot of philosophizing, a lot of thinking and talking with other people and a couple years ago, like actually, if you would have said to me 10 years ago, Minou in 10 years from now you are a philosophy reading, meditating vegan or vegetarian, I would have looked at you like you're absolutely crazy, no way, but by time I realized if I want to live healthy on this planet and actually play my role in this transition and also be in sync with nature. I need to meditate. I need to start walking and go into nature and think about thinking systems and embrace silence and all of those things. And I absolutely become a vegetarian even though 10 years ago or like my first internship when I was studying was at a butcher department because I studied food innovation and I actually created a recipe line for big pieces of meat for restaurants and right now I'm like everybody should totally get of meat and fish and eggs at all of that, but that took me a really long time and I'm still transitioning. I'm a vegetarian right now, and I'm transitioning to be a vegan. I am embracing meditation and walks, but I'm still not going to silent retreats or really getting there. So, it takes time because it's a whole set of assumptions and beliefs and actions and way of living that we have to leave behind and then we don't really know yet how this new world will look like, so we're also transitioning to something that we have to imagine and that we can't per se, visualize directly, like I can visualize how it will look for me and how I would want the world to be, but maybe for someone else that's slightly different. So, with companies it's also really important that you go through all these steps. So first for example, start at the basics of sustainability 101. Explain them what is going on, why it is important to talk about and talk with them about what they find important in their life. Like what do they love? What do they want to protect? and go have Socratic conversations. So, really looking to go deeper and deeper into what they deem or what they think, what their assumptions are, and all of these things then maybe try some meditation or maybe the bit, maybe make it for a while a bit more tangible. So, first you focus on opening up a bit. Then you make it more tangible by focusing on a practical, sustainable innovation process and once they see the fruits of that actually and actually get the good feeling you get when you're doing something that's actually good for the planet, then go further and further and further, so really slowly build it up because the other day I was working with a uh with a big fintech organization and I would have loved to meditate with them at the beginning of the session. I chose to not do that, but to incorporate other moments of silence and reflecting and then if I have longer time with them at some point, I will start yeah, including that as well cause otherwise you'll scare people off, and I've experienced that myself. Over the last couple of years that people suggested things or that were in my option at that moment, esoteric or a bit fufu and yeah, they stopped me. They stopped me in my progress, and they scared me off and I was like, nope, I'm not doing this. I want to keep it practical, and tangible and progress focused, and I want to avoid to startle people.

Jeanette: Yes, that’s true. I think sometimes when we talk about sustainability, people think that we are all tree-huggers or that we live in the woods and things like that - which are all really interesting concepts, and I would love to do that. But for someone who has his entire life-based progress and success in numbers; and if this number or metric is not bad by the certain date, you are considered a failure which isn't the truth… But this is the kind of mentality that society, maybe our families, our friends or where we come from, has embedded in us. And also, in this world where communication is so easy to go by numbers rather than by what we feel on how we ought to be living.

Again, you've touched upon a few things about which I'd like to pick your brain on… I didn't realise that you worked in the in the food industry for example and this is a subject that we discuss often at the office because we talk about our cities and the lack of space and maybe how to include these innovative ideas such as what they're doing in Singapore: that they're using urban farming at the much larger scale and maybe even having the percentage of their food production within their own homes. What are your thoughts about this? How do you think innovation could it be introduced in the food, and possibly the beverage, industry?

Minou: Uhm, yeah. So, my study was specifically actually called food innovation, so there is a bachelor in the Netherlands that completely focused on that or is actually a university. A University of applied science called the HAS, which a lot of their studies focus on, yeah, food development, food innovation, agricultural innovation, and all of these things and there are so many different ways that you could incorporate innovation in the food industry. It's like it's yeah, it's a huge question, so you can focus on the practical side of things, of course, the technical side of things like more efficient food processes, less sort of harmful produce, harmful ingredients, but you can also focus on packaging and then more importantly, I think where we can gain the most is focus on the way we produce food and also what we want from food because we're constantly actually tricked into desiring things that aren't good for us, so we constantly crave, maybe chocolate or sugar or fast food or all of these things because over a day we see so many marketing and things and so many uhm, yeah promotions and things that we like that we need it or we want it or we want more and like all of these things are in fact actually they're not healthy. They're not good for us. They're not particularly good for the planet. They're not good for us over a longer period of time, and yes, they are very tasty at that moment but after you've finished the whole chocolate bar, you're not gonna feel particularly good. Now, I'm not saying I never fall into this trap like I absolutely love chocolate, which is also a problem, but it is the amount of screaming marketing endeavors that constantly tell us to desire certain things and a lot of these things are just simply not good for anything, so I think the biggest innovation would be this is not going to happen, but the biggest innovation will be neutral packaging. No marketing, just a name and an ingredient list and what it is. No colors, no shiny shapes, none of it. Just have the most practical, most sustainable packaging material, or even better, have no packaging material because we can buy in bulk. You can bring your own glasses in all of these. Getting this kind of innovative thinking to the food sector that would be huge. Probably isn't going to happen unless it becomes a legal must, because marketing plays such a big role and upon that moment, in case that is never going to happen, I think it will be…we need more sustainability marketeers who collaborate with innovators and the innovators, the product developers make sure that we're constantly focusing on creating and designing healthier and more sustainable products. Completely circular. Looking at the life cycle analysis looking at soil depletion, looking at ocean acidification, looking at water pollution. All of these things, everything has to be taken into consideration and then actually working together with state ability marketeers who can get this message across that this is the better way to go. And that's for example, you don't need to drink milk and eat meat if you want to be a bodybuilder. Actually, if you want to be a bodybuilder, it's probably better to go vegan. But somehow, we think we need protein from meat. The average human being in Europe already gets, eats too much protein every day. Even if you cut out made completely, you still get the required amount. So, it's a lot of these, yeah, little things that are put in our brains and sometimes even by government support.

Like you have this EU wide marketing campaign for I think for bio meat. Why is the European Union promoting a meat campaign? like I seriously, like guys, it blew my mind. That's I also signed a petition for it because that's just ridiculous. So, I think the biggest innovation, and this was like moving beyond this, but the idea of that current way that we eat food is the way to go and move more towards a what is good for human beings over a longer period of time because evidently and also that makes sense if you think everything is a systems and nature evolved in a certain way. What is good for humans actually tends to be good for the planet as well and what is destructive for humans is often destructive for the planet as well, so I think this displays the usual. And another thing from an innovation perspective and a global innovation perspective is what we're seeing right now is, that allows the cultures that a lot of the food cultures around the world are melting together and for example, one of the big great hypes, I think is the spread of hummus, which is also spread, sorry my brain. Is the spread of humus over the world, which yeah, comes from the Middle East and now it's everywhere and it's actually a very protein rich, quite sustainable food efficient type of food and I think it's great. It's been rolled out everywhere and I believe there are a lot of other types of food and grains and ingredients that are being used in other parts of the world that we should use a lot more in Europe and the other way around because we limit ourselves to actually quite a small amount of ingredients to feed our nutrition. And yeah, I don't want to go at it at Maltese food, but in in Malta the limit of the amount of ingredients is even smaller though, like I think there is quite a problem. Uhm, there could be some need for food innovation, I would say.

Jeanette: Well, yes. Very well put. I'm not going to comment about Maltese cuisine. Well, essentially what I managed to bring out from this conversation was the social responsibility that we all have for this. Be it if you are designer or an architect or a marketing person, there is an underlying responsibility that we have towards each other. So perhaps to tie things up and to conclude this really interesting conversation Minou. If you could give us some actionable points, some takeaways, things to think about, what would be the salient points of what you would like to share with us today?

Minou: I always like to end with a with a quote by I think his name is David Wallace Foster and he has a quote about fish and maybe it seems a bit strange, but there are two fish swimming in the ocean and at one point or they come across that I swim across an older fish. And the older fish knots to the two younger fish, and he asks how's the water boys? The fish continued to swim and after a couple minutes they look at each other and he asked what's water, and I think one of the most important things we can do is question our water. Question the systems we live in, the stories we believe in, the assumptions we have. Our current idea of success of overconsumption, of wanting always needing to buy the new technology to belong or to be, yeah, be trendy. Always buying into the latest trends, buying into the idea that you have to go on far, far away holidays that you need to climb a corporate ladder that you need to buy a house. All of these things, there's so many things that we can that we can question and, and I think once you peel those back and really look into what you find important in many ways you will notice that for a long time you have been driven by extrinsic values and beliefs rather than intrinsic, and often the intrinsic values mean that you will be desiring to be a lot more In sync with nature and a lot more at peace and actually adopting that way of living is also more sustainable and better for the planet. And even though that my company is called The Green Sprint, which is about speed, I think in many ways the best way to speed up for us all right now is slow down. Really check into ourselves and start living in a less fast-paced way and this advice actually applies to individuals, freelancers, solopreneurs but also big corporations. Also, CEOs. I think every CEO can question themselves, what is my legacy? What is important? And this is a heavy one, but I always like thinking OK, what if this day would be your death bed? like are you happy with the way that you spent your time? Are there things that you would have done differently or because everybody like nobody at their death bed wish to work more. I wish I'd make more money. It's always I've I wish I spent more time with my family. Spend more time in nature went on that really long hike or have valued my wife more. It's always these things. It's never materials and its never money so find a way to break that reflection that you normally only have at the end of your life to now and then start living from that point and that will be a lot more sustainable than we're doing right now.

Jeanette: This was Minou Schillings and you are listening to the Human Agenda. Thank you so much for joining us in this episode.

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